Nick Mamatas ([info]nihilistic_kid) wrote,
@ 2005-12-01 18:05:00
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Ted Chiang thinks that to understand the difference between SF and fantasy is to consider the difference between science and magic, and having started from such a shoddy premise, manages to get the whole thing wrong.

The problem is one of shitheap ideology. Chiang talks about the mass production of technological goods (radios, what have you) versus notional artisinal production of magical goods (pumpkin coaches, etc.) and says "Once the Industrial Revolution began, though, everyone could see tangible, practical consequences of the universe's impersonal nature."

That's quite a statement, sitting as Chiang is in a country where people think Adam and Eve rode dinosaurs to church on Sunday, that a news report about a plane crash is a secret message to them from God saying "I killed those eighty-nine people to make sure you take Greyhound to Disneyland instead of flying", and that they're going to win the lottery one day if they keep playing their birthday as their lucky numbers. Plus, how about those folks who shake their fists at their computers when the DSL blinks out, who look heavenward and say "Why me?" when they're stuck in traffic or struck with cancer, and pretty much, you know everyone except for the sociopathic fatalist? The last thing people want to see are the tangible, practical consequences of the universe's impersonal nature...unless and until it suits them. Then we can shrug and say "Ah, well, that's what happens in a free market/when you don't pay attention in school/ when bad weather hits some continent I've never been to/ when my neighbor gets cancer and I don't." Indeed, even social systems, which can certainly be personal in nature, are conceived of as impersonal forces -- a part of the natural universe divorced from human agency -- when it suits the observer, his or her prejudices, and his or her needs for ego defense.

And speaking of ego defense, this is where Chiang goes wrong. He's not defending his own ego, I don't think, but he is repeating an argument that echoes through the hallways of airport Holiday Inns every weekend -- the SF writer's self-justification. Most SF, the so-called "literature of ideas" contains precious little of either. It's Boy's Adventure stuff, with the math worked out. Sometimes. But it's a bit difficult for a mature person to dedicate large swaths of his or her life to producing mediocre books for teens (who then commit the crime of playing videogames instead!) so they pretend to be doing something else, namely dealing with the Heavy Shit of philosophy, technology, and economics. They certainly can't claim to be excellent writers! (Chiang can, and he's rare for it.) It's the same Heavy Shit anyone in a college town can get access to by hanging around in the right coffeehouse and eavesdropping on the sophomores, but there you go. The kings of the shitheap want to be special, just like their readers do.

If SF proponents are progressive (or as progressive as Mill and Hobbes are these days, which is to say not at all), they need to cast fantasy as utterly retrograde, even feudal. Thus, the content-free (Chiang manages to name precisely zero examples of the fantasy he purports to describe) declaration that in fantasy (as a reader? a writer? a character? someone who has heard about fantasy?) "successfully interacting with the universe requires acknowledging that you're dealing with a person and not a rule-bound system." Not so. Plenty of fantasy magic is rule-bound, and indeed depressingly so. The sub-Tolkien Eddings/Brooks fantasists tend to go for magic as a technological analog. Individuality, enlightenment, the role of consciousness and perception, these are all missing -- magic instead works the way a not-very-bright teenager thinks electricity works. There are polarities, laws of conservation and dosage, and magic is often quantifiable so that it can fizzle out at dramatically appropriate moments, etc.

Chiang's confusion about this, I think, is due to a conflation between mass production and mass consumption. There are plenty of people who not only are oblivious to the impersonal nature of the universe, but who couldn't tell you why electricity doesn't just pour out of the outlets in the form of tiny yellow lightning bolts and puddle onto the carpets like water. The electrician is their wizard, the plumber their mage. Doctors are gods. We could likely all get a job on an assembly line making radios, but that doesn't mean that we know how radios work. We could potentially find out, by studying and tinkering and learning the lexicon (how to read schematics, practicing soldering, taking enough courses to learn how a transmitter works both in principle and how actually-existing transmitters are designed, built and deployed) but the average person doesn't do that for any number of reasons, including the fact that the economy needs lots of lugnut-tighteners and not so many lugnut-designers. After about seventh grade, education is generally cultural gravy plus computer applications and driving skill development. Millions of people make their living either making phone calls or answering the phone. Significant skills sets aren't involved.

So who can learn about the radios, design the MRIs, perform brain surgery? "Special" people, at least in the Western conception. And that informs genre conventions. We rarely see protagonists in either SF or F of mediocre intelligence, strength, and potential, because both genres make their bucks appealing to the aspirations of their audiences, To Be Special. Whether it's rocket science or wizard school, we're not going to find many major characters in SF or F who drifted through high school, went to community college, dropped out and had a kid, then years later matured enough to return to school, got a degree (in physics, gargoyle studies, bootyology, whatever) and then saved the world. Nor do we see the true protagonist of the Industrial Revolution, the Mass Hero of the millions of workers, slaves, and colonial subjects upon whose backs the revolution was built, as anything other than set dressing. Occasionally, in slice-of-life SF like Triton or China Mountain Zhang we'll see minor league support personnel for this or that technocracy as protagonists, but those books are as rare as they are wonderful.

Instead, our heroes (rare, special) masterful producers of wonders (scientific or magical), in a landscape full of consumers who stand there, get threatened, and then are saved, so that they may consume again.


SF and fantasy are different, but the difference isn't one of progressive libertarianism versus reactionary communitarianism. It's Coke vs. Pepsi. Both colas, both essentially a bellyful of sugars and battery acid, and with tons of cash spent to explode minor differences into major brand loyalties. And both go flat right away.


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[info]pnh
2005-12-01 11:18 pm UTC (link)
"Most SF, the so-called 'literature of ideas' contains precious little of either. It's Boy's Adventure stuff, with the math worked out.">

Quite right. As [info]tnh once observed, most supposedly "hard" SF is simply adventure stories in which male characters periodically stop to make tough-guy chit-chat about engineering.

Science fiction that actually engages plausibly with science (or even engineering) is a delight, but as often as not the real stuff doesn't get labelled "hard SF."

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[info]nihilistic_kid
2005-12-01 11:19 pm UTC (link)
How's about some book recommendations?

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[info]grimjiminember
2005-12-01 11:52 pm UTC (link)
I wonder if he's riffing off Brin's commentary on Tolkien as being an enemy of progress, but getting the conclusions wrong.
http://salon.com/ent/feature/2002/12/17/tolkien_brin/

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[info]grimjiminember
2005-12-01 11:53 pm UTC (link)
Also here, for those who don't want to brave Salon's web site.
http://www.davidbrin.com/tolkienarticle1.htmlhttp://www.davidbrin.com/tolkienarticle1.html

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(no subject) - [info]zangtt, 2005-12-02 02:03 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]grimjiminember, 2005-12-02 02:10 am UTC (Expand)

[info]moschus
2005-12-02 12:09 am UTC (link)
Nice.

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[info]zangtt
2005-12-02 01:51 am UTC (link)
I just don't have the energy to give this topic the attention it deserves (and China Mieville has already gone to work on this topic, anyway). The short answers include the following: science fiction is very implicated in a kind of temporality which is complicit in all sorts of colonialist projects - one in which the past is always made coherent only in terms of the present, in which the meaning of the past/present is in the horizon of expectation. It calls for the distrust of one's senses.

Which isn't to say that a critical science fiction is impossible - but it would be one that was somewhat against the grain of the genre (and we prety much agree who those practitioners are.)

Fantasy can be complicit (even without including such racial-imperial modern fantasies such as Tolkien) in a variety of ways, but personally, I think romantic irony is a more progressive stance than even dark-toned future-orientation.

I don't disagree with the rest of your critique entirely (again, that's why we both like Delany and Disch.) I think the "special people" critique is less pervasive than you imply - it's a trope which can appear in almost any literature. The problem with the genres, of course, is that they are often written for adolescents - the adolescent power fantasy is appealing to subjects who experience themselves as lacking an autonomy whatsover. The critique of the "special people" mode of writing is really a symptom of dealing with genres that are geared either to teenagers or other people with an arrested sense of the development of their own agency.

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[info]nihilistic_kid
2005-12-02 02:08 am UTC (link)
The critique of the "special people" mode of writing is really a symptom of dealing with genres that are geared either to teenagers or other people with an arrested sense of the development of their own agency.


Partially, though it seems to be a bit wider, if not deeper than that. Americans in general are more likely to hold to some idea of innate ability (he's smart, she's musical, I've got a head for numbers) than, say, the populations from which America draws its East Asian immigrants. Indeed, the idea of spending 12 hours a day in a library, mastering something you don't seem to have a natural facility for and don't necessarily "enjoy doing", is considered deviant in the US.

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[info]rfrancis
2005-12-02 02:08 am UTC (link)
I agree with everything you said -- except none of it makes me want to stop drinking Coke or Pepsi, so to speak.

Why do writers of have to turn on the hoity-toity machine? I'm starting to have some sympathy for the comic writers who griped at Eisner when he coined "graphic novel" after all -- McCloud sneers at them for not wanting their medium to be taken seriously, but for heaven's sake, at some point it'd be nice of people became comfortable with what it is they do and spend less time finding exciting ways to redescribe it, whether they write funny books, or space opera, or swords and sorcery, or slasher books, or pulp, or vampire porn, or whatever the heck.

Of course, I hate genre distinctions in the first place, so.

-R

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[info]nihilistic_kid
2005-12-02 02:12 am UTC (link)
People hope that what they are doing is worth doing. What's more interesting is the double-bind. First, SF is dealing with the Real Heavy Shit and how come we're not invited to lecture Congress on cloning as we've been thinking about it since the 1940s. Second, SF is just pure good ol' fashioned entertainment and nothin' more, thumpin' stories, without any of the literary faggotry that steals our vital fluids! You want a send a message, call Western Union, sonny, cuz there ain't nothin' political about this here story about a planet that finds worldwide peace, melts its weapons (except for ONE space battlecruiser) and then -- garsh! -- is attacked by heretofore unknown hostile aliens!

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(no subject) - [info]rfrancis, 2005-12-02 02:15 am UTC (Expand)

[info]badgerbag
2005-12-02 03:28 am UTC (link)
There's a classic essay by Samuel Delany on this... About Five Thousand Seven Hundred and Fifty Words.

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[info]matociquala
2005-12-02 04:08 pm UTC (link)
Thanks for that link.

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[info]spimby
2005-12-08 07:42 pm UTC (link)
Double thanks...I hadn't read that essay before, and have been steering entirely clear of this debate, so I missed your post last week.

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[info]nightcry66
2005-12-02 03:50 am UTC (link)
The double-bind you speak of reminds me of Malzberg's Engines of The Night- he spends a lot of time writing about that problem. Is SF visionary, or is it just wanking off with technology?

Unfortunately, wanking off seems to be the current correct answer.

-Gregory Martin

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[info]darkphoenixrisn
2005-12-02 03:52 am UTC (link)
There are plenty of people who not only are oblivious to the impersonal nature of the universe, but who couldn't tell you why electricity doesn't just pour out of the outlets in the form of tiny yellow lightning bolts and puddle onto the carpets like water.

There are faeries who live in the outlets to keep the electricity from shooting out like lightning bolts.

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[info]eeknight
2005-12-02 03:56 am UTC (link)
It could be the immaturity talking, but dedicating large swaths of life to producing mediocre books for teens is nice work if you can get it. I much prefer it to my years devoting large swaths of my life to filtering french fry vats, or stacking 40 lb bags of dog food by expiration date, or selling living room suites to trophy wives, or slinging VBasic code on a project that the new managing partner will cancel to make the old managing partner look bad *hat tip to Dilbert*.

So much so that on cold snowy mornings my monitor sometimes bears telltale lip imprints.

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[info]nihilistic_kid
2005-12-02 04:21 am UTC (link)
Yeah, and you write fanatasy, not SF! Once the vampires show up, "speculation about the future based on rigorous application of known scientific principles" goes out the window, dude.

Fantasy writers generally don't have the king-of-the-shitheap hang up one finds among some SF writers.

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(no subject) - [info]agamisu, 2005-12-02 01:48 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]nihilistic_kid, 2005-12-02 06:07 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]eeknight, 2005-12-02 05:28 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]nihilistic_kid, 2005-12-02 06:13 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]eeknight, 2005-12-02 09:03 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]nihilistic_kid
2005-12-02 04:22 am UTC (link)
And no, space vampires don't count!

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(no subject) - [info]jlassen, 2005-12-02 03:01 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]eeknight, 2005-12-02 05:27 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]mswyrr
2005-12-02 08:11 am UTC (link)
It could be the immaturity talking, but dedicating large swaths of life to producing mediocre books for teens is nice work if you can get it.

Bless! That's exactly what I want to do with my life once I realized that though writing is really, really fun, I'm not a genius at it. But I'm not a genius at anything else, either, and it's fun!

Anything worth doing is worth doing medium well.

*embraces mediocrity*

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[info]mswyrr
2005-12-02 08:13 am UTC (link)
*wanted

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[info]coridan
2005-12-02 04:00 am UTC (link)
My question is, that this text of consumerism - how much of it is intentional, and how much is it's manifestation structural? This Chiang sounds like he's blithely unaware of the structures he supports.

How much of the surround is designed, and how much is incidental?

CB

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[info]frogworth
2005-12-02 11:39 am UTC (link)
Nice character assassination there, Nick.
It's probably worth everybody who comments here to go and actually read Ted's post first, and read it in its context - as a response to Sarah Monette's post, which explicitly discusses the Industrial Revolution. Ted was simply taking that and adjusting to show his point of view.

It's also worth noting that, as Nick briefly mentions in his post, Ted does write science fiction of the sort that is very much about what science is.

Of course, it's true that in most sf, science is used almost like magic is in fantasy, but then most sf is crap, just like most fantasy is crap, most horror (what's that anyway?) is crap, and so on.

Just to point out from Ted's first paragraph: "Her views on the subject align very closely with mine, but I figured I'd offer some additional thoughts."
Right. So this is Ted's views on the subject. Fair enough. Nick doesn't agree. Elizabeth Bear ([info]matociquala) thinks there's no difference (although she says it with a *g*). Etc. For me, Ted draws out a very useful distinction, that certainly goes a good part of the way to describing a very real distinction between the world-views of... something and something. It's not unfair to suggest that a lot of sf fits in one world-view and much fantasy fits in the other.

The social impact of the Industrial Revolution is indubitable, but neither here nor there. It's certainly not hard to find progressive liberal sf these days: look at most of the British authors - Stross, Reynolds, McAuley (even in the science-thriller mode he's currently in), Justina Robson, Jon Courtenay Grimwood, and of course Ken Macleod, etc...

So before you wankers go "This Chiang seems to be doing this or that", "Maybe he's riffing of Brin" (wtf?), maybe go and read Chiang himself and note that he covers most of these objections anyway. Oh well, thanks for the snark anyway, Nick, and apologies for looking like a shill for Ted, but when you have an LJ as well-read as yours and lots of ignorant people take your post at face value I just feel I ought to jump in. Ta.

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[info]st_rev
2005-12-02 05:12 pm UTC (link)
It's not ignorance so much as that people read NK's journal for the character assassination. It's like a highbrow text-only version of Bumfights.

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(no subject) - [info]frogworth, 2005-12-02 11:45 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]gadarene, 2005-12-03 12:42 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]st_rev, 2005-12-03 05:41 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]nihilistic_kid, 2005-12-02 06:04 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]negative_slant, 2005-12-02 06:59 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]st_rev, 2005-12-02 09:57 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]negative_slant, 2005-12-02 11:30 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]frogworth, 2005-12-02 11:49 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]matt_arnold
2005-12-02 09:49 pm UTC (link)
Just off the top of my head, I can think of two science fiction stories with dropout drifters for protagonists: Standing In Line With Mr. Jimmy by James Patrick Kelley, and Shadow of the Mothaship from Cory Doctorow's collection A Place So Foreign And Eight More. These days, a hip and ironic attitude abounds in science fiction.

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[info]nihilistic_kid
2005-12-02 10:32 pm UTC (link)
A story from 1991 and another, more recent story, from a small press collection, equals "abounds"?

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(no subject) - [info]matt_arnold, 2005-12-02 10:56 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]nihilistic_kid, 2005-12-03 12:06 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]matt_arnold, 2005-12-03 03:10 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]nihilistic_kid, 2005-12-03 03:56 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]matt_arnold, 2005-12-03 04:29 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]nihilistic_kid, 2005-12-03 04:48 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]matt_arnold, 2005-12-03 06:22 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]nihilistic_kid, 2005-12-03 06:26 am UTC (Expand)

[info]bovil
2005-12-03 12:41 am UTC (link)
Gotta love it when Cheryl Morgan posts a heads-up to one of your entries.

I'm going to argue with your final proposition. "SF" and Fantasy aren't really different.

Sure, there's SF where everything is carefully extrapolated from current scientific theories without taking great leaps of faith that something is totally wrong, thus allowing for faster-than-light travel or instantaneous matter transmission. Sure, there's SF where the resolution of the plot depends purely on the science.

But that's not even commonly the case. Back in the 30's, H. G. Wells was already saying this. He admitted that his science fiction was much closer to fantasy than the works of Verne.

Most SF is technological fantasy. Ill-thought and inconsistent technology is just as at home as ill-thought and inconsistent magic. Giant space-lizards replace dragons. Aliens replace vampires. Zombies are the product of a virus rather than of voodoo. Blasters have pretty much the same effect as "matic missile."

Phil Foglio had it right when he was discussing the difference between SF roleplaying games and fantasy roleplaying games. They both have the same props and trappings, it's just in SF games they're all electric.

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[info]nihilistic_kid
2005-12-03 12:44 am UTC (link)
I agree with all that.

However, I contend that SF and F remain different.

What's the difference? The same difference as that of Coke v. Pepsi -- consumer response as influenced by branding.

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(no subject) - [info]bovil, 2005-12-03 01:11 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]nihilistic_kid, 2005-12-03 01:26 am UTC (Expand)

[info]katfeete
2005-12-03 05:31 am UTC (link)
Eh, my response to all this got rather long. It's posted over on my blog, for the interested.

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[info]razorsmile
2005-12-03 05:42 am UTC (link)
What I seem to be getting from your post is sf/fantasy = male/female.

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[info]nihilistic_kid
2005-12-03 05:46 am UTC (link)
Google "science fiction" and "girl cooties".

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(no subject) - [info]razorsmile, 2005-12-03 05:12 pm UTC (Expand)

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