Nick Mamatas ([info]nihilistic_kid) wrote,
@ 2005-08-11 22:55:00
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Oh [info]cousinjean, don't go!
How does a post that reads Screw it. Y'all win get 450+ comments in response? Well, here's elements of the original post, as preserved by Lee Goldberg:

I've gotten a lot of e-mails over the past year asking if and when I'm going to finish both Dancing Lessons and my sequel to The Butterfly Effect. Believe me when I say that nobody is more depressed about the unfinished state of my fan fiction than I am. But the cold, hard reality is that I have bills and student loans to pay, an actual paying writing career to try my damnedest to launch, and an eventual marriage to save and plan for. The simple fact is that there is no more room in my life for fan fiction. I've tried to make room. I have. But it's just not happening.

I realize that a lot of people will probably judge me pretty harshly for the following, but I'm just desperate enough not to care. I'm offering to sing for my supper, so to speak, and I don't see the shame in that. So here's my proposal: if every reader who has read and enjoyed my fan fiction over the years will donate the amount that they would expect to pay for a hardback novel (and I've written the equivalent of several novels in the course of my fanfic career), then I will be able to take a year off to write full time. This means that not only would I be able to finish the original novels that are languishing on my hard drive; I would also be able to finish my fan fiction.

Basically, what I'm asking for is monetary support from my reader base in helping me get my career as a professional storyteller off the ground. In return, if at least half of my goal is met, I promise to continue the work that has gained me a following in the first place. I'm asking you to buy me time to write.

If you're willing to do this, in addition to finished WIPs you will also have my eternal gratitude and a mention in the acknowledgements of my first published novel. If you're not, that's understandable, and all I ask is that you never again ask me how my WIPs are coming.



This reminds me of the Lily Tomlin joke. As a child, she was told to take out the garbage and so walked into the living room to get to the kitchen but while in the living room spotted the shelves of Reader's Digest condensed books, the wagon-wheel coffee table, the Emmet Kelly Jr. figurines, the fake Duraflame log in the fireplace and she thought to herself, "Take out the garbage? Where to begin?"

There's the asking for money for fanfic, of course, which even other fanficcers -- well, most of them -- know is a red flag that can bring howling lawyers to the doorstep. (Of course, 'cuz also has a few defenders who say that she's not really technically asking for money for fanfic, just that money will allow fanfic to be created maybe somehow magically, because that line of reasoning will surely lead to a summary judgment against the copyright holders). There's how much she's asking for -- ten times what the author of an actual hardcover novel gets, per reader. (Never mind the peonage involved in writing a licensed Buffy book.) There's this precious bit of snottiness: "If you're willing to do this, in addition to finished WIPs you will also have my eternal gratitude and a mention in the acknowledgements of my first published novel. If you're not, that's understandable, and all I ask is that you never again ask me how my WIPs are coming." Give me money, or I'll dictate how you may speak to me! And of course, there's the fact, mentioned in the comments, that one of the fanfic she mentions as hers actually has a number of co-authors who were not privvy to her passing of the begging bowl. Her actual dollar amount goal is unnamed, but if she meets "half" of it, she'll finish the fanfics.

Then there is the elimination of the post and its replacement by, not an apology, but a passive-aggressive whine, and then, ANOTHER POST, in which she declared 'Goodbye cruel world [of fandom]' and alludes to various unnamed disabilities and the massive size of her pride with its lack of a new, improved, coating that makes it easy to swallow.

Oh, and she actually did get some money out of some dumb twats too. Meanwhile, God forbid one of you people send me a dollar, or, fuck, spend what you would expect to pay for a hardcover novel, minus 37%, and actually GET A HARDCOVER NOVEL OUT OF IT!

Or, as [info]lightscape put it on her MUSH, re: me, but virtually any working writer or any stripe and their shit jobs can be swapped in:

"Maybe if I hadn't watched Nick almost literally type his fingers to the bone writing stupid bullshit for horrible people, meeting daily - sometimes multiple daily - deadlines, for years and years while also somehow maintaining the stamina and creative energy to crank out several novels, countless short stories and articles, for many years working harder than anybody who doesn't actually work down at the docks hosing corpses off of cranes works, for which effort he is rewarded with a life of poverty and a faceful of bullshit from every piece of shit fanboy on the net who doesn't see why she shouldn't be paid to do nothing but dick around writing fan fiction on account of how she's so talented and all."
"He begs on the internet all the time. For people to buy his damn books."
"He doesn't go out and ask people to pay him for what nobody should be paid and nobody should pay, not to mention needs to pay."
"And that's just the /personal/ part of why I'm so mad. ;P"



Personally, I'm not even mad. Once you've stumbled across a Harry Potter/Tyler Durden fanfic, you know that this particular manifestation of fannish activity is a race to a bottom that left the pits of hell far behind long long ago.

What annoys me is the flounce. In it, she writes that she wishes to speak in the defense of anybody who takes a chance and asks for help in a society where we're expected to help ourselves.

The actual chance-taking in this society comes not from member of a privileged strata (and anyone who counts student loans and the class expectation to save for a marriage ceremony among their woes is privileged) asking for a few thousand $25 donations to take a year off, but from those who actually risk ridicule (do-gooder, Pollyanna, bleeding heart!) and pain (double shifts in the ER, firing or manhandling by Pinkertons at the factory gates, diving head first into flaming buildings) to create a society where people can actually help one another. I'm sure we all know people who worked eighty-hour weeks and sucked down noodles and potato chips for a couple years straight in order to fund their own nursing school educations; people who have been imprisoned for weeks or months and who have been tortured by the police during campaigns to bring the rudiments of democracy to their home country; people who have faced enormous physical, emotional, and sexual abuse as toddlers and kids and who managed to, with help from friends, grow up to be fairly well-adjusted lovers and parents; people who'll go without eating so that a friend or relation won't have to go without eating and a roof over their heads...I mean, I'm just summarizing some of the life stories from people on my goddamn AIM buddy list. If a guy who never even leaves his fucking house can meet people like this, the planet surely must be lousy with them.

But good ol' [info]cousinjean? Fuck it, she can't even take the risk of finishing a book without being paid for it up front by Internet suckers. Nor can she take the risk of growing the fuck up. "There are some of you whom I'm sincerely sorry I've disappointed or embarrassed by my request. The rest, not so much." Oh, we're not disappointed, Jeaniebeanie, we knew you had it in you. If not you, well, then someone else. See, if not for people like you -- the incorrigible, self-involved, parasite -- the people I describe above wouldn't have to bust their asses in three just to keep the world spinning for your sake.


(Post a new comment)


[info]douglain
2005-08-12 03:08 am UTC (link)
If I send you a dollar will you admit that some of us are stupid enough to send you a dollar?

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]nihilistic_kid
2005-08-12 03:12 am UTC (link)
Better make it two dollars; some are you are real fuckin' stupid.

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(no subject) - [info]jenlight, 2005-08-12 05:03 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]cataptromancer
2005-08-12 03:08 am UTC (link)
I'll give you a dollar for the second-to-last paragraph.

(Reply to this)


[info]stopword
2005-08-12 03:20 am UTC (link)
There was a pretty awesome discussion of this here: http://www.journalfen.net/community/fandom_wank/776590.html

Her fellow fanficcers and fans were going apeshit, and she still didn't catch on that she'd broken a taboo? It's even revealed that a) she only has a part-time job to begin with and b) she didn't chip in for pizza at a slash convention. Ha ha! I love intarweb gossip.

And I bought your book via a link on your journal! Gimme a cookie.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]nihilistic_kid
2005-08-12 03:21 am UTC (link)

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(no subject) - [info]stopword, 2005-08-12 03:26 am UTC (Expand)

[info]gadarene
2005-08-12 03:21 am UTC (link)
Your AIM pen pals, hm. ; )

I am upset by her restraint, though. She bypassed the classic God will kill her dead if she doesn't get writing sponsorship. Really, what an amateur. How could she have missed that old standby?

Nice work if she can get it—writing in response to paid subscribership. She really should eBay her oeuvre sponsorship or advertise: "seeking patrons." I don't blame her for her utter uninterest in doing it (licensed character infringement) any other way.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]txvoodoo
2005-08-13 06:33 am UTC (link)
Yes, but she'd prayed on it, and god was endorsing her plea for money :)

Onward Christian Soldier(ette)

(Reply to this) (Parent)

Hi Nick!
[info]biledragon
2005-08-12 03:27 am UTC (link)
Yes, I'm still here. And you're still mean.

Have a nice day.

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Oh boy!
[info]nihilistic_kid
2005-08-12 03:30 am UTC (link)
Why don't you marry [info]cousinjean -- I'm sure you can take her out of her misery in your own special way.

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Re: Oh boy! - [info]burgundy, 2005-08-12 03:33 am UTC (Expand)
Re: Oh boy! - (Anonymous), 2005-08-12 03:42 am UTC (Expand)
Re: Oh boy! - [info]nihilistic_kid, 2005-08-12 04:05 am UTC (Expand)
Whoooooeeee - [info]gadarene, 2005-08-12 04:41 am UTC (Expand)
Re: Hi Nick!
[info]kynn
2005-08-12 04:58 am UTC (link)
BILE DRAGON NEEEEEDS MORE ATTENTION PLEEEEAASE

WON'T SOMEBODY THINK OF THE CHILDREN

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Re: Hi Nick! - [info]biledragon, 2005-08-12 05:17 am UTC (Expand)
Re: Hi Nick! - [info]kynn, 2005-08-12 05:59 am UTC (Expand)

[info]farklebarkle
2005-08-12 03:42 am UTC (link)
I'm coming into this cold, and have no idea who this person is...why are people so up in arms about this thing?

Yes, it's a stupid request...but why is everyone so pissed off?

(I'm honestly curious)

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g
[info]biledragon
2005-08-12 03:50 am UTC (link)
They're not angry. They're just taking great joy in skinning her.

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(no subject) - [info]coyotejack, 2005-08-12 03:58 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]farklebarkle, 2005-08-12 02:31 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]nihilistic_kid, 2005-08-12 04:08 am UTC (Expand)
g - (Anonymous), 2005-08-12 04:18 am UTC (Expand)
Re: g - [info]nihilistic_kid, 2005-08-12 04:26 am UTC (Expand)
Re: g - [info]tremblor, 2005-08-12 04:44 am UTC (Expand)
Re: g - [info]biledragon, 2005-08-12 05:33 am UTC (Expand)
Re: g - [info]kynn, 2005-08-12 06:02 am UTC (Expand)
Re: g - (Anonymous), 2005-08-12 04:56 am UTC (Expand)
Re: g - [info]kynn, 2005-08-12 05:02 am UTC (Expand)
Re: g - [info]biledragon, 2005-08-12 05:16 am UTC (Expand)
Re: g - [info]kynn, 2005-08-12 06:00 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]nihilistic_kid, 2005-08-12 05:26 am UTC (Expand)
Re: g - [info]tactile, 2005-08-12 04:47 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: g - [info]biledragon, 2005-08-12 05:43 am UTC (Expand)
Re: g - [info]nihilistic_kid, 2005-08-12 05:48 am UTC (Expand)
Re: g - [info]biledragon, 2005-08-12 11:08 am UTC (Expand)
Re: g - [info]nihilistic_kid, 2005-08-12 01:22 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]tweedisgood, 2005-08-26 12:47 am UTC (Expand)
Re: g - (Anonymous), 2005-08-12 02:36 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: g - [info]kynn, 2005-08-12 05:00 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]farklebarkle, 2005-08-12 02:28 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]jenlight, 2005-08-12 05:05 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]pandarus, 2005-08-12 06:09 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]pandarus, 2005-08-12 06:16 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]farad, 2005-08-13 10:37 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]jackiekjono, 2005-08-12 06:47 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]benpeek
2005-08-12 03:56 am UTC (link)
you always bring up that dollar, man.

anyhow, that's wild. asking for money to finish a fanfic book. also, i see your buddy is back, telling how you much he loves you. how nice.

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(Anonymous)
2005-08-12 04:25 am UTC (link)
Hi, Nick!

You haven't mentioned me in seven or eight days, which is the same as threatening my life with sarcasm.

But it doesn't really bother me, Nick. Because I'm writing. I'm a perpetual sperm explosion of hot molten creativity night after night. There's no stopping me. I'm like Napoleon Bonaparte with a rocket jammed up his ass. That's one Napoleon who's going far, and going fast.

Because it's all about the writing, Nick. You just never understood that. It's all about the writing, not the business or the money or the posing at conventions with all your pretty HWA friends. And it's sad that some posers like you think they can just talk and talk and talk about writing.

Because writing isn't talking. Talking isn't writing. It's all about the WRITING.

I'm writing. I have a new chapbook of short horror stories coming from lulu.com, called "Dark Digestion Excrement, Dark." What do you have, Nick? Besides beating up on a poor young woman who just wanted to share her love of writing fanfic in moneyed leisure with a heartless world?

Now I am really leaving the internet forever until the next time someone threatens my First Amendment rights by murdering me with sarcasm, which is against Congress.

But you just don't get it.

--Piledragon

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[info]st_rev
2005-08-12 04:30 am UTC (link)
I am embarassed to admit that I didn't realize this was a parody until I saw the signature.

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g - (Anonymous), 2005-08-12 04:51 am UTC (Expand)
Re: g - [info]nihilistic_kid, 2005-08-12 04:55 am UTC (Expand)
Re: g - (Anonymous), 2005-08-12 04:59 am UTC (Expand)
Re: g - [info]kynn, 2005-08-12 05:04 am UTC (Expand)
Nick's boyfriend - [info]gadarene, 2005-08-12 05:30 am UTC (Expand)
Re: Nick's boyfriend - [info]biledragon, 2005-08-12 05:34 am UTC (Expand)
Damned unlucky - [info]gadarene, 2005-08-12 05:42 am UTC (Expand)
Re: Damned unlucky - [info]biledragon, 2005-08-12 11:09 am UTC (Expand)
Re: g - [info]biledragon, 2005-08-12 05:31 am UTC (Expand)
Re: g - [info]kynn, 2005-08-12 06:03 am UTC (Expand)
Re: g - [info]claudelemonde, 2005-08-16 06:54 pm UTC (Expand)

(Reply from suspended user)
g - (Anonymous), 2005-08-12 04:53 am UTC (Expand)
g - (Anonymous), 2005-08-12 05:01 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]kynn, 2005-08-12 05:03 am UTC (Expand)
g - [info]biledragon, 2005-08-12 05:28 am UTC (Expand)
Re: g - [info]nihilistic_kid, 2005-08-12 05:30 am UTC (Expand)
Re: g - [info]biledragon, 2005-08-12 05:31 am UTC (Expand)

(Reply from suspended user)
Re: g - [info]kynn, 2005-08-12 06:02 am UTC (Expand)
Re: g - [info]biledragon, 2005-08-12 06:14 am UTC (Expand)
Re: g - [info]nihilistic_kid, 2005-08-12 01:18 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: g - [info]biledragon, 2005-08-12 02:02 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: g - [info]nihilistic_kid, 2005-08-12 02:07 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: g - (Anonymous), 2005-08-12 08:21 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: g - [info]nihilistic_kid, 2005-08-12 09:24 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: g - (Anonymous), 2005-08-12 11:00 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: g - [info]nihilistic_kid, 2005-08-13 03:36 am UTC (Expand)
Re: g - (Anonymous), 2005-08-13 09:21 am UTC (Expand)
Pretty Writing - [info]strangebint, 2005-08-12 06:28 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]farklebarkle, 2005-08-12 02:32 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]gadarene
2005-08-12 04:33 am UTC (link)
"He doesn't go out and ask people to pay him for what nobody should be paid and nobody should pay, not to mention needs to pay."

Oh, have you stopped hawking those Café Press shirts, then?

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[info]nihilistic_kid
2005-08-12 04:43 am UTC (link)
Hey, it's not my choice to make people pay for Café Press shirts! Talk to THEM! I just added a dollar.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

Earned Respect
[info]strangebint
2005-08-12 06:19 am UTC (link)


Being a fanfic writer I totally agree with everything you said. Especially the part where she dictates that people cannot ask her about her WIPs if they don't send her money, and the fact that she never took into account the other writers that helped her write the story. That just amazes me. As a fanfic writer you are thankful for every comment on anything you get. People are taking the time to write to you after they discovered and enjoyed your writing and that is mostly the reason why you are doing it.

This might set people off, but I can even see if you are a really good popular fanfic writer that is going through some financial duress that you might ask for donations from your fans to "keep your site running." I don't think I would personally do it, but that I could understand and get behind.

Harry Potter/Tyler Durden?? You're not serious? I don't think she is that out there to expect money for that. And I think you stereotype and dismiss all fan fic writers. I really think fan-fic-writers deserve respect, and people should know that some of us write really great creative stories that truly affect people just like any other piece of writing. I also think that people can have physical, mental, and learning disabilities that makes it really hard for them to work as many hours as we do in America. I also think it can be frustrating to be good at something creative that you can't get paid for and not be all that good at stuff people can pay you for. However, I also think that respect needs to be earned. There are fanfic writers that are worthy of it, but no matter how good her writing is she wasn't acting like one of them. I also think that while people with disabilities have rights to be given assistance that doesn't mean they should put others out so they can do what they like.

It seems from the smatters that I read from her journal that she lives with her mother and her family has a great influence over her. As a fanfic writer, I can tell you when you tell your family how you are writing but not really, the first thing they do is ask how you can money for it. (It's the same with non-fan-fic writing.) I think this person is very easily influenced by the outside pressuring family that doesn't understand the fanfic world at all. This doesn't excuse her for her actions, it's at least somewhat of an explanation.

Jody AKA Strange Bint

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: Earned Respect
[info]st_rev
2005-08-12 05:36 pm UTC (link)
Harry Potter/Tyler Durden?? You're not serious?
"This isn't really death," Voldemort says. "We'll be legend. We won't grow old."

I tongue the wand into my cheek and say, Voldemort, you're thinking of vampires.
Here and here. I don't know if I'd call it serious, but there it is.

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Re: Earned Respect - [info]strangebint, 2005-08-12 06:08 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Earned Respect - [info]st_rev, 2005-08-12 07:30 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Earned Respect - [info]strangebint, 2005-08-13 07:36 am UTC (Expand)

[info]affinity8
2005-08-12 10:51 am UTC (link)
I don't condone [info]cousinjean's attempt at cyberbegging but Karyn Bosnak solicited more than $20,000 to pay off her shopoholic credit card bills at savekaryn.com, so it might actually have worked if she'd pitched it right. I think Jean has been sufficiently shredded in the days since her post to never try it again.

Unfortunately, there are people who sell their fanfic for profit. When someone offers .pdf download of fanfic for an $8 or $10 paypal fee, that's earned money. As far back as 98 I knew of one popular fanfic writer who was making money off the zines she sold at cons, and there's a zine dealer who would slap together stories already printed on the internet and sell them at exhorbitant prices at cons. There's even one couple that regularly show up in Boston area cons trying to sell of fanfic they printed off at home over the years. People also put together their own unlicensed keychains, calendars, check book covers, etc, and sell those off--and not at cost, either.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]nihilistic_kid
2005-08-12 01:22 pm UTC (link)
The old payments for spiral-bound Kinko specials are still, in my mind, quite different from "Send me $25, and I will write fanfic for you. And not give any of the money to my co-writers. Because I feel like quitting my job. But I want a fancy wedding."

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]jonhansen
2005-08-12 01:55 pm UTC (link)
You're peddling shirts on CafePress? What's the address?

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[info]nihilistic_kid
2005-08-12 01:59 pm UTC (link)
Yep, you can choose I Mock Your Value System or NOT the stupidest motherfucker in the room.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]sclerotic_rings
2005-08-12 03:56 pm UTC (link)
Sigh. I can't even begin to find anything to add to this one. And I thought I was pathetic by asking folks to buy my old books.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]fengi
2005-08-12 04:45 pm UTC (link)
If someone has a product or a yard sale or a "rent party" with free food and drink, and the get people to pay inflated prices with a self-serving "fundraising" pitch...I think that's just caveat emptor. This lady was seeking something for nothing.

I can also understand having a fundraiser for major supporter of some small community if they have financial disaster thrust upon them such as getting sick with no health insurance, but wedding bills? A total stretch to me.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

Thank you.
[info]tactile
2005-08-12 04:34 pm UTC (link)
As one of the individuals who has worked my ass off to get where I am... I really appreciate what you've written here.

I don't know much about fanfic or slash (and dear God, I don't want to), but I do know that I get very cranky when I hear about someone asking for a free ride. I fully believe that nearly anyone can accomplish any goal with enough good friends and determination.

I love you, Baby C loves you, and I think I'll probably send you a dollar just this once.

(Reply to this)


[info]fengi
2005-08-12 04:43 pm UTC (link)
Wow, this is such a brilliant response to Pettus as well.

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[info]the_numinous_1
2005-08-14 10:16 pm UTC (link)
OH NOOOS! You made her baleeete her journal!

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[info]spimby
2005-08-14 10:28 pm UTC (link)
BALEETED!

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[info]spimby
2005-08-14 10:26 pm UTC (link)
Good god.

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[info]chaizzilla
2005-08-19 09:04 am UTC (link)
wuhu i got manhandled by pinkertons, i count for something!

when did you move to vermont? i've been away..

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]chaizzilla
2005-08-19 09:04 am UTC (link)
o wait o wait o wait, if there's a nick-moved-to-vermont faq just tell me where, don't be mean or anything

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)(Expand)

(no subject) - [info]nihilistic_kid, 2005-08-19 03:09 pm UTC (Expand)
being paid for fanfic
(Anonymous)
2008-06-18 04:50 am UTC (link)
i agree with the lady that wants to get paid. if you don't want to pay for it, then dont bother her for to complete your stories. if you want the satisfaction of reading the sorry now, then buck up.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: being paid for fanfic
[info]nihilistic_kid
2008-06-18 04:53 am UTC (link)
Yeah, well. You're an idiot. She cannot charge for fanfic -- she doesn't own the stuff she's writing. How's about I collect your paycheck next week, asswipe?

(Reply to this) (Parent)


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