Nick Mamatas ([info]nihilistic_kid) wrote,
@ 2004-07-12 13:06:00
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But they keep pulling me back in...
I wanted to not write about SFnal stuff here for a while, as too much of any one topic gets boring (for me that is, you little bitches can sit there and lump it if you don't like what you read in this lj) but then the normally very good webzine Strange Horizons had to go and publish this bit of nonsensical drivel written by a fellow who semi-published a book with a micropress, at one point falsely claimed that said book had been nominated for the Tiptree award, and, of course, whose self-insertion protagonist appears on the cover looking like an idealized version of himself..

The essay is about "elitism", but only the particular sort of elitism that comes about from not being the stupidest motherfucker in the room. The first segment of Morris's essay complains that "Maybe these 'enlightened few' in the genre need to get that knot out of their spacesuits (you know the one I'm talking about, and where it is!) and face the truth: media SF/F/H is what continues to make this genre a popular one."

How has Morris determined this truth, or the mental states of these so-called elitists? Well, he hasn't. There isn't all that much impact, except in the broad strokes of pre and post Star Wars worlds, between the popularity of science fiction. fantasy, and horror films and sales figures of SF/F/H. While some people, like former Star Trek novel editor John Ordover have suggested that this is because SF/F is less accessible than media stuff, movie/book popularity is ultimately a comparison between apples and oranges. Pleasure reading is a minority activity, and there are many more SF/F/H books published each year than there are SF/F/H feature films released. So yes, pretty much any movie you can name will be more popular than any book. I doubt anyone, even the most dedicated beanie-wearer, thinks books are more popular than movies.

Incidentally, the matter isn't helped by the genre book channels being flooded with the semi-published babble that read like failed screenplays. But moving on...

The idea of elitism in SF would certainly make for an interesting article. One could interview midlist writers like Melissa Scott or Barry Longyear, who have written media tie-in books but who are known primarily for their original fiction. It would be cool to talk to the gang down at Borderlands Books, a genre bookstore that makes a point of not carrying any tv/movie/RPG books or other material, and compare their thoughts to the folks down at Dark Carnival eight miles away, who gladly sell the stuff.

Or you could just make up and a bunch of stupid shit about how writers at some backwater con didn't drop to their bellies and suck the hair off your toes solely because you think The Animatrix iz teh r0x0r. Which Morris does.

He makes shit up, you say ol' bean? Yes, he do. Behold: "Even The Lord of the Rings: Return of the King, a Fantasy film that did the impossible in winning the 2004 Oscar for Best Motion Picture, has been rejected by elitists as sub-standard for the genre and its reputation."

Please to be name one elitist say LOTR is teh suck, no? No. I'm sure many SF/F fans disliked the LOTR movies (I liked 'em), but sans interviews, public statements, or telepathy helmets, the idea that people disliked the movie only due to elitism doesn't stand. There are at least two more good reasons to dislike ROTK: too much of the gay, and not enough of the gay.

Morris, having planted his lance into the media windmill, then changes topic completely. Now the problem is that some SF readers don't like fantasy. Morris complains: "One panelist I shared a discussion with on 'Originality in Fantasy' showed no hesitation in showing her disdain for the genre as she said, 'You don't need characters to drive a Fantasy. Create a good setting, add in a quest, and people will buy it.'" Yes? AND?!?!?! Morris may think something horrible is self-evident here but I don't get it. Let's see some sales figures, a comment from an editor who can assure us that quest fantasy doesn't equal instant audience. Maybe we can get into why the nominees for the World Fantasy Awards and the bestselling fantasy titles seem to have little overlap. Or we can...you guessed it...just make more shit up.

Morris does actually make two correct factual claims, by my count. He says " And for the price of one hardcover, you can buy three movie tickets and get the entire experience handed to you on a silver platter, complete with visual effects and soundtrack." True. But so what? It's not self-evident that CGI and pseudo-Mahler mush is a better experience than the ideo-linguistic experience of reading 100% of the time, or even any of the time.

His other true claim: "Just look at the top grossing films. More than just fans of the genre are attending these films, so I truly believe we reach a wider audience than just con attendees." You can actually draw a line through everything here but "we reach a wider audience than just con attendees." Yes. If SF/F/H books sold only to con attendees, no major publisher would bother with the expnse of publishing him, and SF publishing would look much more like poetry publishing than anything else. Perhaps Morris, who goes to cons frequently to shill his micropress title, doesn't get that some publishers can actually distribute and sell books to tens or hundreds of thousands of people as a matter of course, but it's true. Bookstores exist.

After this brief foray into the Realm of the Real, Morris is back to tilting at windmills. After going on about how hard SF doesn't relax him, he then says that he would never say that SF is too dry for consumption, despite the fact that he just, uh, did.

Then Morris Stands Up For Horror. "When an author says, 'My latest work is Dark Fantasy,' reply with, 'Oh, you mean Horror?' Make sure to wear a good pair of running shoes and scope out the best places to duck for cover. " Rather than running, I'd suggest just standing there and mumbling while the author says "No. Dark fantasy. ENGLISH MOTHERFUCKER, DO YOU SPEAK IT??!?!" Or smiling when he says, "Sure, horror, but the chains don't carry much horror these days and I don't feel the need to live in a barrel just because I like to say 'horror.' HORROR HORROR HORROR, I love that word!"

And of course, not all horror is fantastic. Not all dark fantasy is primarily interested in reader affect and the return of the repressed, the two hallmarks (in my view) of horror fiction. DF and H certainly have a wide overlap as does SF and H and contemporary American realism and horror, mainly because nearly every narrative has some elements of fear, dread, and unease within it. Not everyone who calls their work "dark fantasy" is automatically lying because of those Mean And Nasty Elitists in the con suite. If anything, DF became a popular term because category horror as a term hasn't sold in years. I imagine authors should starve for their art, unless of course, a media book deal comes along.

Morris isn't so much standing up for horror as he is standing up for his pal. "Horror author Tony Ruggiero, a good friend whom I tour with quite often, has caught the hammer blow of this elitism from other SF/F authors." No anecdotes are forthcoming, no names named, nothing. But I have a Ruggiero anecdote. I heard him read from his semi-published novel Team Of Darkness, about vampiric Special Operators, at Jersey Devil Con a couple of years ago. He read to us from the prologue, which takes place sometime after the events of Chapter Five. And yes, the "prologue" read exactly like a, you guessed it, failed screenplay. If folks are rolling their eyes at Tee and Tony, it's not necessarily because of snobbery, and may well be because trying to sell unreconstructed cliches with all the subtlety and honor of a midway barker grates on the nerves of people. Double when you whine and moan about elitism in response to the eye-rolling.

Finally, Morris reveals his real complaint. Because he is insane, he liked Van Helsing. Lots of normal people did not not. Thus, we are Wrong and Bad. He complains that Van Helsing was supposed to be kitschy fun, but that the rest of Planet Earth doesn't get it. "Not every film can be grand scale, have character development, or show spit-polished writing, nor should we expect them to do so. If every SF/F/H movie needs to be IMPORTANT, then we are facing a future of pretentious, self-righteous "speculative cinema" of intellectual ego-stroking."

Of course, nobody in the world has ever claimed that every SF/F/H movie has to be important. In fact, I'd be amazed if anyone had ever claimed that any SF/F/H film has to be important. Kitsch can be well-done and entertaining. Films Morris names, like Bubba Ho-Tep and Big Trouble In Little China do have decent character development and all that other good stuff, while retaining a fun atmosphere and manic energy. Van Helsing just blows. It fails on its own terms.

And here is when we come to The Awful Truth. Some people simply lack any critical facilities. Tee Morris seems to be one of them. If he likes books with pirates and princesses in 'em, then there is no such thing as a bad book with pirates and princesses. If someone dares say that they dislike something, the idea is inconceivable! But but...pirates! Princesses! These micropress titles are just as good as anything else out there, because they have pirates and princesses and vampires and spaceships that fire laser cannons that go pshew pshew pshew or would if not for the eerie silence of the vaccuum of space...just like anything else on the shelves! Well-written? Clever? Expertly paced? Raw but full of emotion? Insightful? Sensing these qualities within the reading experience takes a facility beyond that of noting the presence of tropes one has previously decided that one enjoys. In a world where Thomas Ligotti's My Work Is Not Yet Done is aesthetically identical to Freddy vs Jason because both have murders in 'em, of course anyone with half a brain sounds like an elitist. When one is the stupidest motherfucker in the room, the world is a hostile and inexplicable place.

Here's my question: how on Earth did this get published without some kind of editorial vetting? I'm actually loathe to post this polemic now, as it will just feed into the idea that the article was somehow "controversial" or was designed to "get people talking." Controversy exists when reasonable people disagree, but a reasonable person who knows how to read will find no footing in this piece. Designed to get people talking? Well that implies that the article was designed, rather than just shat out in one burst of retarded fury. Damn, there I go, being an elitist again...


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Bwahahahahahahahahaha
[info]windswept
2004-07-12 01:25 pm UTC (link)
When one is the stupidest motherfucker in the room, the world is a hostile and inexplicable place.

I just posted this in [info]metaquotes. Now I need someone to put this on a cross-stitch pillow for me.

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Re: Bwahahahahahahahahaha
[info]chaizzilla
2004-07-13 01:43 am UTC (link)
Now I need someone to put this on a cross-stitch pillow for me.

i can do this quite well -- i'm also a starving geographer who could use the work.

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[info]gadarene
2004-07-12 04:04 pm UTC (link)
They defang at security checkpoints these days, dontcha know.

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[info]sclerotic_rings
2004-07-12 02:44 pm UTC (link)
Oh, I remember that message of "I can't let you going about maligning the films that I love" from my days at New Pathways. Reviewing genre films these days is like taste-testing dog crap, and there are always those who thoroughly enjoy the flavor, no matter the source.

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[info]emrecom
2004-07-12 02:47 pm UTC (link)
what a thimble-brained mofo is this dinkie aware of anything that isn't a major release?

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[info]dgkgoldberg
2004-07-12 02:56 pm UTC (link)
How on earth did you wade through that?

I tried, really tried, to read it and it was just painful.

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[info]eyebeams
2004-07-12 03:35 pm UTC (link)
Motherfucker must be a gamer.

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[info]eyebeams
2004-07-12 04:07 pm UTC (link)
Tee Morris' writing career began unexpectedly at the Maryland Renaissance Festival with his portrayal of Rafe Rafton, a character later featured in his historical epic fantasy, MOREVI The Chronicles of Rafe & Askana.

Kill! Kill! kill!

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[info]katyakoshka
2004-07-12 04:08 pm UTC (link)
I found his book on Amazon.

*headdesk*

Why? *whimper*

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[info]mroctober
2004-07-12 06:25 pm UTC (link)
I remember my run in with Tony Ruggiero at Arisia I believe. I was moderating a panel on Dark Fantasy vs. Horror and he was on the panel. I tried to incite the panelists to offer their opinion on some of the distinctions I saw between the two genres (the involvement of magic, the role of the villain/monster, etc.) and Tony responded to every question I posed with a blank stare and blinking eyelids (I think he was trying to communicate "Fuck off, faggot" to me in Special Ops codewinks). All he wanted to do was talk about his book in the hopes of selling copies to the audience rather than about the genre or the craft of writing.

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[info]blackholly
2004-07-12 09:16 pm UTC (link)
What is the world coming to when you use the f-word?

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you're obviously a smart guy who's got an interest in
[info]just_jeff
2004-07-12 07:57 pm UTC (link)
the cultural effects of the written and spoken word.

your next-to-last sentence--where you make the "retarded" comparison as the crescendo of insulting this guy--has me wondering: is that just an automatic pilot thing, and "retarded" was a handy insult and you didn't give it much thought? or is it more that you don't accept the commonly-stated objection to that phrasing and see no problem with using it?

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Re: you're obviously a smart guy who's got an interest in
[info]nihilistic_kid
2004-07-12 08:01 pm UTC (link)
The last.

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Re: you're obviously a smart guy who's got an interest in
[info]just_jeff
2004-07-12 08:03 pm UTC (link)
would you be willing to engage on the subject?

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Re: you're obviously a smart guy who's got an interest in
[info]nihilistic_kid
2004-07-12 08:04 pm UTC (link)
Sure.

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Re: you're obviously a smart guy who's got an interest in
[info]just_jeff
2004-07-12 08:08 pm UTC (link)
thanks. i take the phrasing to mean, more or less, "to express how little regard i have for the argument/idea/person, i will compare it/him/her to someone with retardation." do you mean something else by it, or is that pretty much it?

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Re: you're obviously a smart guy who's got an interest in
[info]nihilistic_kid
2004-07-12 08:15 pm UTC (link)
Not quite. "As a result of reading the essay and noting the utter lack of coherent thought, logical argumentation, and correspondence to reality within the essay, I would characterize it as something we might see coming from the mentally retarded, if said MR got angry enough and had the attention span to piece these sentences together."

Now obviously, given the above, I have little regard for the essay, but that lack of regard comes from the numb-brained construction of the text -- it's not a free-floating notion.

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Re: you're obviously a smart guy who's got an interest in
[info]just_jeff
2004-07-12 08:26 pm UTC (link)
the lack of regard you have for the essay i have no beef with. the writer's sins as you describe them--inarticulate rage and unfairness and arrogance and intolerance for other views--are all worthy of disdain.

but it seems unfair to me to bring people with retardation into it at all and to associate them with those traits, and, inherent to the analogy, to speak of them with disdain.

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Re: you're obviously a smart guy who's got an interest in
[info]nihilistic_kid
2004-07-12 08:41 pm UTC (link)
Unfair to whom? And which traits? Retarded people aren't associated with the traits of intelligence failures by third parties (me), they are associted with intelligence failures by whatever problem has caused their retardation.

There's also a sort of linguistic game-playing going on: referring to someone as "retarded" versus referring to someone as being "with retardation" or as an "MR" or whatever the term du jure is is a manifestation of second-order bourgeois aidos, a pose I have no interest in.

There was no social movement of the retarded to demand that they be referred to as "with retardation" or as "MRs". To the extent that there is still an infrastructure of caregiving for the retarded (a close friend referred to as [anecdote embargo] works with the retarded, including survivors of Willowbrook, so does my friend [info]razorart) there was no real movement to change terminologies either...except to the extent that such changes were a fig leaf to cover the slashing of programs, the closing of homes and institutions, etc.

I find this schoolmarm-style finger-wagging about as ridiculous as the college speech codes of the 1990s designed to protect oppressed populations from offense. These speech codes accompanied massive increases in tuition that worked to keep oppressed populations from attending the schools anymore anyway. But for the thin stratum of the middle-class, the codes were a booby prize.

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Re: you're obviously a smart guy who's got an interest in
[info]just_jeff
2004-07-12 09:18 pm UTC (link)
my saying i don't like using "retarded" as a way to express disdain for someone isn't inherently oppressive or trivial in the way you make it seem by comparing it to the university codes you don't like.

and your point on "retardation" as opposed to "retarded" isn't at the heart of the issue for me. for me the heart of the issue is that (to my ear) using "retarded" as a way of expressing contempt for someone has a side effect--generally unintended--of expressing contempt for people who are already treated with plenty of disregard.

your description of the writer isn't just that he has substandard inteligence. you descibe him as contemptible, and you do so partly by saying he is like a retarded person. that is what i am objecting to.

lastly, your critique of me above is at least partly that i have engaged you on this at all. but i haven't imposed this conversation on you; i was perectly willing back in an early turn to drop it if your answer was "no, i think this whole issue is just scholmarmish finger-wagging." if it's going to degenerate into name-calling, and you don't think anything i'm saying here is valid, let's drop it.

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Re: you're obviously a smart guy who's got an interest in
[info]nihilistic_kid
2004-07-12 09:31 pm UTC (link)
Are speech codes oppressive or trivial? They can't be both at once. (My vote is for trivial). And how is your dislike of using the word "retard" anything other than trivial? What social effects that we'd all rather avoid emerge from it? Is unfairness (especially second-order unfairness: you claim it is unfair to the retarded, the retarded haven't spoken on the issue) by definition non-trivial? Why?


Actually, my critique has nothing to do with the fact of engagement. It has to do with the fact that you made a claim and haven't yet, after a few go-arounds, explained why I should take the claim seriously. You think it's unfair why? Two hours later, I still don't know. Just repeating yourself doesn't mean much.

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Re: you're obviously a smart guy who's got an interest in
[info]just_jeff
2004-07-12 10:16 pm UTC (link)
The trivial/oppressive thing: I think you see such policies as restricting people's right to free speech (a form of oppression) for reasons that are trivial (Victorian politeness, more or less). I think that you are wanting to link what I've said here to those policies to say that I want to oppress your free speech for reasons that are trivial. Assuming I'm right on those two points, I disagree with the association because I do not want to oppress your right to free speech, but rather am asking you to reconsider one form of insult.

As to whether the form of insult--again, NOT the word "retarded"--is trivial, I think it is not. I'll re-frame some of what I've already said in a way that will clarify my objection, since I have so far been unclear.

1. (clarifying re-hash) Your negative characterization of the writer was not limited to substandard intelligence, but to a broader range of negative behaviors, specified above.

2. (clarifying re-hash) By saying he is acting the way retarded people act, you associate them with those negative behaviors.

3. (this was previously implied; it was my error in not spelling it out) This is unfair because any given member of that group may or may not possess those traits or engage in those behaviors. It negatively--and inaccurately--generalizes the group as being like this writer in these negative ways.

4. This matters because it (unintentionally, in most cases) perpetuates a pervasive language and culture of disregard for the people involved. This disregard has material consequences in people's lives.

5. Of course, discontinuing your use of "retarded" as a way to express contempt for an adversary will not end the ill treatment of retarded people. I am asking you to consider that the usage may be one small weight on the wrong side of the scale (that is, away from respectful treatment).

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Re: you're obviously a smart guy who's got an interest in
[info]nihilistic_kid
2004-07-12 10:34 pm UTC (link)
1. Yes.

2. No. If I were to say that someone was "as fat as a house and as dumb as a hammer" I would not be calling hammers fat.

3. See 2. except insofar as we're talking about intelligence, in which case, yes, all retarded people do have lower than average intelligence (to the extent that intelligence can be operationalized).

4. Pure madness. That is why I brought up speech codes previously: this is a feint by the aidos-ridden middle class, nothing more. Language does not perpetuate a culture of anything and has no impact on the treatment of the retarded. How do I know this? Because the rise of linguistic policing accompanied a slashing of mental healthcare budgets, deinstitutionalization, and long-term austerity budgeting. Material conditions change first; to the extent that language reflects these changes, it does so for ideological purposes. The fact that at an institution in Queens right now there is a Willowbrook survivor drinking out of the toilet because that is what two decades of privation and institutional abuse trained her to do -- even as a nation of Mrs. Grundys were instructing us all to say "with retardation" rather than "retarded" -- is proof of this.

5. I consider this the equivalent of being asked to involve myself in a charade for the sensitivities of the most privileged members of society. Step one of actually doing something that could tip the scale is removing the scales from our own eyes: linguistic activism is not only a dead end, it is a means by which folks are co-opted, distracted, and demobilized.

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Re: you're obviously a smart guy who's got an interest in
[info]just_jeff
2004-07-12 11:14 pm UTC (link)
#2: i'll trust you on intent. i initially read--perhaps i'm not the only one--"burst of retarded fury" as a broader statement of the worst traits of the essay you're critiquing.

#3 no point discussing this, as our difference on point #2 makes it follow inevitably that we'll also see this one differently.

#4 I don't know if you mean that it is madness to make a connection between the way we talk about things and the way people act in this instance, or ever. I agree the connection can be over-stated, and that it can be utilized to advance or veil a horrible agenda. And if I could choose to eradicate either (a) schoolkids beating up a kid with Down's Syndrome or (b) calling that kid names, I'd of course opt to end the physical violence.

But I disagree that it is madness to relate the two. Probably not a worthwhile conversation for you and me to have, in terms of costs and benefits.

#5. I understand that you don't think the behavior is harmful. But you don't find it disrespectful at all? If your best friend were in the room, and his or her brother had Down's Syndrome, would you still say that a view you found contemptible was "retarded"? That's part of what I mean by a small weight on one side of the scale.

In any case, I am tired and headed to bed.

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Re: you're obviously a smart guy who's got an interest in
[info]nihilistic_kid
2004-07-12 11:21 pm UTC (link)
5 seems to be the crux of this. Anyway, to answer, not only would I, I have. Not only have I, I've heard the same from people with retarded relatives. I've heard the same from people who have dedicated their adult lives to pursuing psychology in order to help people with all sorts of mental disorders.

Note this as long as what I found contemptible about it was a lack of intelligence.

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Re: you're obviously a smart guy who's got an interest in
[info]scanner_darkly
2004-10-09 06:37 am UTC (link)
This is extremely late in the game, I happened to run across this posting while up way too late and going from lj-thread to lj-thread, but...

I have a retarded sister, in fact, she has Down's Syndrome. If I was in a room with you and the subject in question, and you called the subject in question and asked them if they shat out that article in retarded fury, I would in no way be offended.

Indeed, I have two sisters who shit out things on a day-to-day basis, and I still wouldn't have been offended. But that's the kind of lad I am. And most likely, the kind of people who are siblings of the retarded or 'differently abled' or whatever they're calling them these days won't be offended.

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Re: you're obviously a smart guy who's got an interest in
[info]kest
2004-07-14 03:14 pm UTC (link)
1) 'retarded' is a word. It means 'slowed down' or 'delayed'. I think it's worth noting that when I read Nick's original post, I parsed it as the fury being late for some reason.

2) Sticking a label on a group of people in not necessarily an insult. Sometimes it's just descriptive.

3) Sticking the same label on someone not a member of the group is not necessarily insulting to the group, even if it's done as as insult to the person. Sometimes it's just descriptive.

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Re: you're obviously a smart guy who's got an interest in
[info]gadarene
2004-07-13 07:44 am UTC (link)
I think you see such policies as restricting people's right to free speech (a form of oppression) for reasons that are trivial (Victorian politeness, more or less).

I believe to be authentically Victorian, the words imbecile, feeble, backward, moron, idiot, half-wit, witless, or lack-wit would be used.

I suspect this thread would not exist if NK had trotted out these synonyms for the mentally retarded.

Does the linguistic drift of these terms (which happened by the same insensitive yet prosaic means as you are discussing here) also pain you?

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Re: you're obviously a smart guy who's got an interest in
[info]just_jeff
2004-07-13 08:24 am UTC (link)
My usage of the word Victorian here is to see if I'm correctly understanding his point in bringing '90s university speech codes into the discussion, and to answer his question on how such codes might be seen as trivial and yet also opppressive.

As to your suspicion that I wouldn't have objected to these terms, you are correct. Connotations evolve.

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Re: you're obviously a smart guy who's got an interest in
[info]gadarene
2004-07-13 08:28 am UTC (link)
Oh, I just jump in anytime someone mentions Victorians or propriety or etiquette. It's just a tic I have. Don't mind me.

And I know connotations evolve. In just this manner.

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Re: you're obviously a smart guy who's got an interest in
[info]just_jeff
2004-07-13 08:32 am UTC (link)
you see a certain term and then just jump into the conversation?

nah, can't relate to that at all...

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an elitist who loved Bubba Ho-Tep
[info]faithhopetricks
2004-07-13 12:20 am UTC (link)
The elitists tend to blame Fantasy authors for the "quality of fan" attending conventions and buying books.

wtf? Who are these "elitists"? When authors write hedging sentences like this one, they're making up generalized vague support "out there" for their own opinions ("statistics say...." "Experts proclaim...." "Society thinks...." -- BS ALERT). Did he interview card-carrying elitists? Can we see the cards? Where's mine?

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[info]jamesovei
2004-07-13 12:42 am UTC (link)
Apropos of fuck all, the only person who gave a negative opinion of the Lord of the Rings movies is Michael Moorcock and he's never really cared for Tolkien anyway. I'm also not sure he counts as an elitist, as he's ventured the idea once or twice that he'd like to see genre boundaries go down and for Shakespeare and Shatner to be shelved together at the bookstores.

As for the article, Morris appears to be an asshat.

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[info]autopope
2004-07-13 03:47 am UTC (link)
the only person who gave a negative opinion of the Lord of the Rings movies is Michael Moorcock ...

Not quite true: you may also want to go look for China Mieville's masterful takedown of Tolkein's work, from quite a different ideological standpoint. (One that, as it happens, I share: while I recognize LoTR as a very significant work, I really don't like the assumptions it takes as axiomatic about the way its constructed history works. I can't help reading it as black propaganda railing against the progressivist forces of Sauron's industrial revolution ... and when I say reading it I mean it; I haven't seen any of the movies yet.)

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[info]jamesovei
2004-07-13 08:34 am UTC (link)
Yeah, I remember that Mieville didn't care for Tolkien. I just never caught his opinion of the films.

And after posting my comment last night, I recalled afew other people who didn't like the movies that, now that I've just awoken I can't recall the others.

Even so, I'm not sure that any of them would qualify as elitist, unless by elitist Morris meant "someone who tels a good story well told", in which case I'd certainly qualify.

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[info]autopope
2004-07-13 03:49 am UTC (link)
Speaking of Morris's article -- which I haven't read yet -- would it be reasonable to assume that he considers financial return to be the sole metric of artistic merit? Or is he simply denouncing the whole concept of artistic merit as a bourgeois affectation?

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[info]nihilistic_kid
2004-07-13 07:58 am UTC (link)
Hmm, not even that much. His point, re: popularity seems to be nothing more than "People like movies, so you had better like movies too!" The slightly extended point seems to be "If you don't like movie, then people who don't like movies won't attend your cons or buy your books!"

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[info]haddayr
2004-07-13 08:11 am UTC (link)
Aaaaaaah. Loved this essay. I'm glad you posted it, even if you're afraid you'll be accused of engaging a nitwit (although I now see that instead you triggered someone's pet peeve). I cannot count the times idiots have confused my desire for excellence with elitism.

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[info]holyschist
2004-07-13 11:00 am UTC (link)
Please to be name one elitist say LOTR is teh suck, no? No. I'm sure many SF/F fans disliked the LOTR movies (I liked 'em), but sans interviews, public statements, or telepathy helmets, the idea that people disliked the movie only due to elitism doesn't stand.

General agreement, but perhaps here he's referring to LOTR purists who disliked the movies for not fitting their visions of the books, not being true enough to the books, etc.? I've seen purists ranting about the movies being WRONG because they have good guys using curved blades, but in the books only the forces of evil use curved blades. Sounds like elitism to me, although perhaps we're using somewhat different definitions.

Not sure what's wrong with being an elitist, though....

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[info]nihilistic_kid
2004-07-13 11:20 am UTC (link)
That sort of purism is hardly elitism though, and doesn't harm anyone. Simply disliking LOTR isn't sufficient cause for a whiny essay about how everyone is so mean and driving movie fans away,

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[info]holyschist
2004-07-26 07:45 pm UTC (link)
I would say it crosses over into elitism when it leads to "Oh, those plebian movie fans just don't know any better, poor dears," or "Oh, those silly movie fans just like them because Liv Tyler/Orlando Bloom/whoever is hot; they don't truly appreciate Tolkien like we do," both of which are views I've seen fairly frequently.

But even that certainly isn't cause for whiny essays, I agree.

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